Message-ID: <12997.991208@acnet.net> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 23:56:07 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds <mailto:dmhinds@acnet.net> Subject: Re: Transferring Environment-Related Technologies - not babbling To: mailto:DEVEL-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU
(What follows below is *not* an informative interchange but rather a defensive one that may not be worth the time for many - nor for me).Hello Kerry,
Wednesday, December 08, 1999, you wrote:
KM> ...can you help this poor impertinent sinner find some way to get KM> from this:
>> local people need to see it unfold themselves, to be there
>> where it's happening, in order to take it in, to believe it, and then
>> to apply it (or even consider that) to their own lives, thereafter. It has
>> to happen in real time (which is gradual), for them to take it in, digest
>> it and chose to get involved - to make it part of their own arsenal.
>>
>> Here involves planting what are called evaluation plots and
>> demonstration plots, and doing this is basic to getting anything new
>> established.
KM> to this:
>> I wish you would define your goals. To me the issue is grounded in
>> Turlough's commission and what he needs to complete that, in
>> relation to what I can contribute in that regard.
Yeah. Be real. The thread had an origin, a purpose. I suggest you respect that.
KM> Specifically: KM> Is Turlough's situation one you can see unfold,
He sent me a draft of what he did, which I thought was well done, as I've found is always true with his work.
KM> In your development committments, is it always a matter of 'original KM> posts,' so that you never have to wonder if a proposal makes sense,
It *is important to be able to assess rapidly the situation and take the appropriate measures.
KM> or if a client is missing the forest for the trees? You just do KM> what you're told ('words are pointers'), right?
I don't work with "clients" myself. I just participate in joint ventures - if the project interests me, if I thinks it's valid, if we come to an understanding... That's how it is.
KM> If I gave you a commission, would that help the present undertaking? KM> Here's a pointer, then: I'm a Nepali farmer, who would like to know what KM> to do now that 'modern' fertilizers have sterilized the soil of my rice KM> paddy. From my understanding of your presentation thus far, I have the KM> following questions:
I think you're playing games I frankly don't have time for. Your drift has nothing to do with "modern' fertilizers have sterilized the soil", you are simply being argumentative and probably had that in mind from the start.
KM> What real time experience will you emphasize? KM> How will you limit your story telling "necessary to actually undertake the KM> experience" of your contribution?
I have clearly stated that story telling is not what I do or recommend.
KM> How does 'assuming a medium for understanding exists" differ in this KM> case, or would you suggest that you don't find the experience of rice KM> farming helpful in the context?
Are you on drugs? I'm serious.
KM> Here's another pointer: I'm not a *real Nepali farmer, and I'd like to KM> explore the possibility of using the Internet to establish or construct or KM> scaffold a common medium for understanding when neither party has KM> the faintest clue what can be assumed of the other's experience, or their KM> ability to tell even a primitive story about it?
What are you? This is a sterile exercise. I only am in involved in integral projects (and don't even ask me to define that, because you *aren't* interested. I find your tack unfounded and parasitic).
KM> What experience would it be helpful to have?
KM> You say 'Sorry,' and in your language, that means, 'Dont talk to me, KM> my reality is different from yours, good day.'
That is appropriate when when has perceived the nature of the person on the other end, and nothing adds up, nor does he want it to. What he's going to attempt to do, then, is turn that around on you - forst lead you on and on, and then try to drown you in his own muck. Good thing I'm a life guard and can hold my breath quite a while.
KM> In my language, it means something different, and while you dont KM> know how sorry I am for you -- that you havent got the time to KM> work on *this story, that even 'story' seems to be such a strong KM> 'pointer' for you -- that's okay; I understand you're a busy KM> person who works only on *problems, not on the problem of KM> identifying problems.
I'm sorry to not be doing what I really need and want to, trying to be courteous and take your messages seriously. I have no idea of what your reality is or if you have one. In fact, I have began to doubt that, and you are confirming that doubt.
As for the problem of identifying problems: I have already identified yours, and it has nothing to do with the kind of development I do, where people have primarily external rather than internal problems.
And while I'm comfortable with metaphysics, I can't say the same for aimless rambling. If you just want to take a walk, take it off list, and with someone else.
KM> Now, in regard to focus, may I take this, your last contribution, as an KM> exercise in refocillation?
As and exercise in refocusing what someone else intentionally defocuses.
KM> It provides so many good pointers to the way one's "internal map" >> serves to direct the attention of the *listener*
Right. Even you.
FYI (which means for your information, rather than something else), I do have other things to do. I *was* glad to answer your questions until I realized there was no point to them what so ever. In fact, all you do is attempt to turn things around on me and for that reason, this interchange was doomed to arrive at this point from the start. Frankly, I haven't run on to this type of problem before on DEVEL-L, but I recognize the mentality and sincerely believe you have a either a substance abuse or emotional problem and ought to get help.
As for my answers, they were quite complete. I suggest your re-read them if you have any doubts. If you continue to harass me, I will have to refer this to the list's administrator. If you really have any specific questions relating to concrete, real life issues that you yourself are involved in and that haven't already been answered, by all means let's hear them. Otherwise, I'd prefer to drop it right now. I'd rather you took it off list. I see nothing appropriate to DEVEL-L in your content.
KM> -- and I did warn you: ... if this conversation is going to KM>> suddenly become *complicated by issues of power and control KM>> and so on - then I'll be watching especially close...
You do have a problem.
KM> ...were you embarrassed by the play on words,
Only for you. Why play games?
>> Your only assumption is that is that a medium for understanding (i.e.
>> a common language) exists.
KM> The inferential contour line that weaves between these dots (and others) KM> is "your only assumption."
You seem to resent my certainty and feel you can shake that. Better bring lunch.
KM> ... How does one verify that a common language exists? -
You verify that when the other person answers, or when you understand what he says, even if when he himself doesn't seem to.
KM> How on God's green earth does "make sure that assimilation occurs" fit
With some people (maybe you); one gets nowhere, so one cuts it off right there, since there is no disposition (or perhaps capacity) on that person's part to assimilate anything. Just as the old saying indicates, you can lead a jackass to water but you can't make him drink. But let me remind you that in this case you responded to my post (just as I responded to Thurlough's, who apparently saw this coming and wisely remained free from it, as I should have), and I feel no need to convince you of anything except to take this off list, if that's what you really want. *Then* I will tell you what you really seem to need to know.
KM> suppose, for instance, that one party '
Suppose what you like. I'm done playing games.
KM> But of course a 'community of practice' takes time, and no one can pay KM> you to contribute.
That was my whole point! One, I have said from the start, do it on your own hook. And secondly, I don't "get paid". I invest.
KM> It's too bad there isnt a *word for a mailing list when its ground KM> for being has collapsed into hardpan like Father-in-Law's field,
You're knocking the list now? And have problems with your in-laws also?
KM> but I guess there just isnt any way to address that reality, is KM> there?
Yes, there is. At least for me.
KM> Let's all just go back to our so-very-concrete Transfers of KM> Environment-Related Technologies, and forget that language might KM> ever have been one of the ways of relating them, eh?
What's concrete is your cute, snide, slick remark that's meant to demean yet fails to cover neither the underlying fallacy nor the personal inadequacy: Language for it's own sake has it's place, but for many it still has to make sense to be worth anything. As I understand it, this list was created and is used for a specific purpose, and yours is another; one which I can't consider constructive at this point. So do everyone a favor and either take it off list, or contribute something positive (that preferably, is *not* directed to *me*).
Douglas Hinds