Message-ID: <199701211742.MAA07492@shell.monmouth.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:42:37 -0500 From: Wilbur Streett <mailto:wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM> Subject: Entropy or Thermodynamics or Economics? To: Multiple recipients of list DEVEL-L <mailto:DEVEL-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
At 07:45 AM 1/20/97 -1000, you wrote: >At 05:22 PM 1/19/97 -0500, Wilbur wrote:
>
>>Entropy in Themodynamics is not the same as the world systems. If that were
>>the case, then were did the fossil fuels come from in the first place?
>>Thermodynamics is about Temperature, not about world development, economics,
>>or much else..
>
>Do you think that these dozens of authors are writing about some
> hypothetical universe? In fact, they are writing about the
> properties of THIS universe. In other words, the human economy
> exists in THIS universe and is therefore subject to the Laws of
> Thermodynamics.
But not under the total control, which is my point.
>
>The First Law says that there is no creation of matter-energy.
> Fossil fuels (matter) came into existence through the
> TRANSFORMATION of solar energy to biological matter over hundreds
> of millions of years. See, for example, the work of H. T. Odum at:
> http://csf.Colorado.EDU/authors/hanson/page17.htm#ODUM
I know how solar energy was converted to fossil fuels.
>Once again, for the umpteenth time, there are no known exceptions
> to the Laws of Thermodynamics. The economy can no more repeal
> the Laws of Thermodynamics than it can repeal the Law of Gravity.
But the economy as a system is not a thermodynamic system, it's an economic system. So your assertion doesn't make any sense.
>Solar inputs work to decrease entropy in our biosphere, but ALL
> economic activity works to INCREASE entropy in our biosphere --
> it's the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
Be more precise, a sample system that demonstrates the "Second Law of Thermodynamics" is the induction of solar energy into the Earth's atmosphere. Solar energy provides a positive inducement of energy to the Earth.
All Economic activity does not increase the Entropy of our biosphere. The entropy of our biosphere increases all by itself, even if there were no human beings on the planet.. Entropy is by definition, the tendency toward randomness..
>Here are some simple examples where economic activity is limited
> by the Laws of Thermodynamics.
>
>The First Law says there is no creation of matter-energy. If you
> have a 50 gallon can full of oil, how much can you pour out of it?
> If you can pour 51 gallons out of it, then I will agree with you
> that the Laws of Thermodynamics do not apply to economics. But
> you can not!
Fluid measure and ecomnomics are not the same thing..
>The Second Law poses an additional condition on thermodynamic
> processes. It is not enough to conserve energy and thus obey the
> First Law. A machine that would deliver work while violating the
> Second Law is called a "perpetual-motion machine of the second
> kind," since, for example, energy could then be continually
> drawn from a cold environment to do work in a hot environment
> at no cost. The Second Law of Thermodynamics is sometimes
> given as a statement that precludes perpetual-motion machines
> of the second kind.
A perpetual motion machine is not economics. Science is not Economics. Ecology is not Economics. Economics is Economics.
>If you have built a perpetual motion machine, then I will agree
> with you that the laws of thermodynamics do not apply to the human
> economy. But you have not!
I didn't say that they didn't apply, I said that they aren't the controlling factor. Thermodynamics is about the dynamics of temperature, Economics is about the flow of goods and services.. Two totally different things, related in a small way, but neither one determines how the other works.
>Thus, according to the Laws of Thermodynamics, the human economy is
> a NET LOSS. In other words, we are on a one-way (irreversible) trip
> down the tube (oil can only be burnt once). For it to be otherwise,
> one would have to posit the existence of another universe where the
> Laws of Thermodynamics do not apply.
Everything is subject to Entropy.. but not subject to the Laws of Thermodynamics.. Thermodynamics is about the dynamics of temperature..
>>The consumption of energy in human systems is not only bound by the "Laws of
>>Thermodynamics". Thermodynamics is a systematic description of the dynamics
>>of Temperature. Not a scientific description of the use of natural
>>resources in human systems.
>>
>>Since you claim that we can't have more energy, (ie. HEAT), perhaps you can
>>then explain how "Global Warming" is the other great disaster that is
>>predicted in ecological circles? You can't have it both ways.
>
>A little research by you, would save a lot of bytes. But since you
>do not know what causes global warming and are too inconsiderate of
>your fellow list members to look it up, here is your answer:
I do know all aboug "Global Warming"..
>The greenhouse effect is a natural phenomenon that was established long
>before humans existed. As the sun's rays penetrate the atmosphere, they
>warm the surface of the earth. Some of this surface warmth is lost as
>infrared heat that radiates back toward space. Certain atmospheric gases --
>such as carbon dioxide, methane, and nitrous oxide -- can absorb this
>energy and prevent the heat from completely radiating away. In this way,
>the earth's atmosphere acts as a layer of insulation: raising the average
>global temperature and moderating the difference in temperatures between
>night and day. These two factors allow the earth to sustain life.
So you admit somehow that that earth is getting hotter, as in more heat, less entropy. Against the "Second Law of Thermodynamics". Boy this Economics stuff must be working!
Wilbur ----------------------------------------- Putting a Human Face On Technology ;-) -----------------------------------------