Message-ID: <364912D0.E9A714F0@idn.org> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:30:08 -0500 From: Christopher Byrne <mailto:info@IDN.ORG> Subject: Re: DML:XML for international Development To: mailto:DEVEL-L@AMERICAN.EDU
Sam, (and the others who have offered comments)Thanks for writing and I will try to address each of your comments. And no, I was not referring to you as the one that flamed me, it was another individual. I rather enjoyed your response to the article on UGA because I felt that was precisely the type of dialogue that needs to accompany such initiatives. I was surprised at the tone of Dr. Tarleton's response, but I agree that any article sent out from what we call the "Banana Herald" down here, needs to be read with the understanding that it is probably written by an underpaid kid who would miss key details.
I also want to say that Canadian Entities do far more than other countries at promoting development information.
And now to your specific comments:
> First, XML is being developed by others - not Bellanet - as
> the markeup language that follows HTML.
I never assumed XML to be part of the Bellanet Initiative, but that DML was clearly the initiative.
> The DML proposal from Bellanet is just to promote dialogue
> around where the development community might want to go
> within the XML initiative which, as I understand it, is
> taking place at the W3 level. There is no secret work and no
> secret agenda. I will make sure the people involved get your
> comments and they will no doubt wish to reply - hopefully to
> clear the air and remove misconceptions.
I have reread the documents on the bellanet site and cannot agree with this interpretation. Again I will quote from Mr. Davies' report: " the field is wide open for Bellanet to take the initiative and to spearhead a standards development activity". I use the word 'secret' because in the time that I been have subscribed to the Dev-L mailing list, this is the first inkling about the project I have seen or heard, yet it is clear that a great deal of effort has gone into this. It is probably my fault for not visiting the bellanet site more often and seeing the information there. By the same token, I wonder how else people may have found out about it. If promotion of dialogues was the case, word should have been sent around long ago.
> I hope that we can sort these out and deal with what is the
> only real issue on the table.
I am always open to discussion. I responded to the message you sent rather than the one on the Afrik-IT list because yours had much more detail.
> ...Is there a useful place for an DML initiative within the
> larger XML initiative?...
That is the very first question that really should be asked. Is there a useful place? I am sure there is because everything has a proper use in a particular context. My concerns are the chicken and the egg approach: should we let the standards drive the technology or should the technology drive the standards. And what is the lowest common denominator technology in the development community? And how do we not cut out groups from the South who may not have the skills or equipment to implement DML (whether it be implemented in Oracle, Notes, or other), when many groups do not know how to use HTML yet or consistently abuse it.
But before I get to that, I think I need to be clear that any initial discussions should focus on "metadata" and information content standards. The development community needs to put its heads together and decide just what information should be consistently delivered by development organizations through the web and other electronic sources. Is there core data that every organization should provide and everything else is gravy? Can all parties come to an agreement on that? Will there be different levels of information needed depending on the type of organization? What about political considerations? How will the information be used? What will its shelf life be (do we follow a 20 year rule or some subset of that)?
I will say that no one group or organization (not the SDGateway, OneWorld, IDN, or IDRC) has all the answers or will be able to come up with answers that will serve every case. And we all know that organizations don't always want to share information.
It is my experience in sitting on a number of web standard development (including the odious metadata) work groups, that parties have their own biases and that nothing gets resolved unless some "higher power" steps to the plate and says "this is the way it is going to be". And who's place would that be? Bellanet/IDRC? The World Bank? CIDA? USAID? AfDB?, etc...
Back to the standards and technology issue...I work with a number of technologies with varying degrees of success. When I build web sites, I build to the lowest common denominator, which in some cases is access by a text-only browser (scary isn't it that a US Entity would still use this technology?) Many times I have seen standards developed which absolutely drive the technology to be used (in an overt attempt by management to get the tools they want). Oracle can be a nightmare, but that may be the only choice when you are forced to use a unix server that doesn't support any other extensions such as NT & Front Page or Cold Fusion (I manage 2 sites that fit this bill).
And then you have the case where you give the kids a new toy (such as Frames, Javascript, Scroll Bar Messages) that get absolutely abused, add no value, and cause browser crashes. Some examples of development organizations that do this (some in combination with bad color sense): the OAS, UNDP, UNECA.
Of course you have the organizations who make decisions that will absolutely cut out entire classes of people. You know, like the ones who use frame sets with no alternative available so all visitors with non-frames capable browsers see is a blank screen. The worst offender: USAID with their new "Technical Consultant Services Resume Database" which only be used with Netscape Navigator and Communicator non-beta versions 4.0 through 4.0.7, Microsoft Internet Explorer non-beta versions 4.0 and 4.01, and Opera version 3.21. Got 3.0 or 4.5? Forget about it. And then after the fact (many weeks after posting the site) do they tell people the tool is only really meant for use of a particular program office.
So we go out and develop DML and some groups use it, some well, some badly, some not at all. Then what have we accomplished? What have we done to those people/still running windows 3.1 on donated computers? What about groups who serve more than one master (I know of many that do work for the development community, the environment, and the scientific community). Are they going to have to know 20 different flavors of XML (and does this not get away from the notion of "Open Systems")?.
You need to understand that the IDN was formed because of the poor job most development organizations do telling their stories, sharing their successes and learning from their failures. I know full well that the next step in our evolution is moving to a database driven system and I have explored a number of options, which led me to start to break down my resistance to the product and strongly endorse a Notes based solution to development information. Why?
A number of development organizations are using Notes either internally or externally: CIDA, the World Bank, USAID, ICRC, World Vision, the SANREM CRSP, the Caribbean Development Bank, and the Education Development Center, among others.
The tool is strong and provides the following combination of features that no one else can touch:
Multiple levels of access and security down to the field level.
Full replication between servers
Full support of HTML (and eventually XML)
Two way pumping of data between Notes and relational databases.
It may not be the tool for everybody (and we can all probably agree that we agree on this), but I really believe that it is the best tool to reach the objective of common data standards before XML even gets here and without having to deal with XML. I like to point my cart at what is, not what MIGHT come to be.
I have a scenario on how to implement this, but I won't go there right now.
So this is where I am coming from and part of the reason I have very strong feelings about this initiative.
Lets keep the discussion open.
Chris
p.s. to Kerry Miller: I try to avoid high horses, they might keep the New York brass from clanging:)