Message-Id: <mailto:199602220621.AAA06487@library.wustl.edu> Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 16:11:52 +1000 From: Jennifer Brasher <mailto:J.Brasher@INS.GU.EDU.AU> Subject: Pagemill: Web Page Software: SUMMARY To: Multiple recipients of list IMAGELIB
Hi all,I havn't had time to summarise the following replies to my letterbox but I hope that everyone has been following the list replies.
My adviser Graham Kirkpatrick still thinks PageMill is a good start, and has recommended it for use at our college for homepages, so I can try that or stay with some of the shareware like HTML Web Weaver, or BBEdit. If I have a chance to draw my own comparisons I'll let the list know, but at the moment I want action as opposed to expertise, and it is a good learning base.
He has sent a detailed review from TidBits, and I have another from our ITs department, which is incredibly involved and leaves my head spinning. In summary, for experts it seems to be irritating, but I cannot yet claim expertise.
Happy Comparisons!
Jennifer QCA
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 12:10:49 -0500 (EST) From: "Douglas R. Brantz" <mailto:brantzdr@xx.acs.appstate.edu> To: Jennifer Brasher <mailto:J.Brasher@INS.GU.EDU.AU> Subject: PAGEMILL MIME-Version: 1.0
Jennifer, I have never used pagemill but have heard a few good thing about it. I might recommend waiting because things are changes so fast and new languages and plateforms are bing created on netscape like VWORLD. You know the stuff advertised on Netscapes homepage. If Pagemill can work with this new stuff then go for it, and its not much money right? There are a lot of free programs like Webweaver out there.
Guess I'm not much help but let me know if you get it and what you think because I might be interested in getting something like Pagemill. I just use microsoftword and save as a test only file. You can check out our Art dept. page at http://www.acs.appstate.edu/dept/art/test.html Let me know what you think.
Douglas
X-Sender: mailto:jod@mail.utexas.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 11:57:55 -0500 To: mailto:J.Brasher@ins.gu.edu.au From: mailto:jod@mail.utexas.edu (James O'Donnell)
I monitor the VRA list-serve, usually without comment. I thougth you might want to check on this site, which has software you can download. I am in a windows environment, and can give you no first hand experience with web writing for Mac. my own approach has been to in put a certain abount of mark-up long hand to learn the principles. I have been glad I did that because it make troubleshoooting easier now that we are using a program called "hot dog". Good luck! By the way, use the links at the bottom to look at the other things our computation center has put on line regarding web publishing.
http://www.utexas.edu/learn/pub/transed.html
-- James O'Donnell mailto:e-mail.........jod@mail.utexas.edu Director Audio-Visual Resources voice..........512.471.0143 School of Architecture fax............512.471.0716 University of Texas at Austin Austin, Texas 78712Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 08:57:50 PST From: "Adina Lerner" <mailto:adina_lerner@studio.disney.com> To: mailto:J.Brasher@ins.gu.edu.au Subject: Web Page Software
I've tried it. It is OK if you've never used HTML before. It does it for you. But as a HTML'er for a year now, I found it totally frustrating as I wasn't able to excerise the same amount of control that I could with a basic freeware program. It only uses HTML 2.0 code, and all the nifty stuff is done in 3.0, especially Netscape specific (which we use at work). It doesn't have tables (3.0 code).
I use HTML Editor 1.1.1, which is shareware available to download off the net. It is NOT PowerPC native, but on my 8500/120 I find it just fine. It has a lot of buttons.
You might want to look up the PageMill review in TIDBITs. It is Mac/Net geared email newletter. If you haven't heard of it, you should. -> see below. I get it on a listserv mailer every Tuesday (probably Weds. for you).
Good luck. Adina
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Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 18:26:21 -0800 To: mailto:J.Brasher@ins.gu.edu.au From: mailto:halverso@calvin.usc.edu (Aniko Halverson) Subject: Web authoring software
Jennifer,
I am writing in resonse to your question on ARLIS-L.
I'm not certain if you mean Web authoring software, but if so, there are many Web authoring programs available for free as they are shareware. HTML Editor and Web Weaver are two which we use quite a bit at USC and they are easily available via the Web.
If you do a search of WEB SOFTWARE or perhaps HTML SOFTWARE using any good search engine, you will find sites from which you can download these programs.
If you are unable to find it, let me know and I can provide you with URLs.
Coco
................................................ Aniko "Coco" Halverson Reference and Instruction Librarian Helen Topping Architecture & Fine Arts Library University of Southern California (213) 740-1598 http://www-lib.usc.edu/~halverso/ ................................................
X-Sender: mailto:sjurist@POPMAIL.ucsd.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:52:06 -0800 To: mailto:J.Brasher@ins.gu.edu.au From: mailto:sjurist@ucsd.edu (Susan Jurist) Subject: PageMill
Unless you are an absolute beginner, save your money. It does a few things well, but it doesn't have all the netscape extenstions & it won't show you the source code, so you then have to open the html file in SimpleText or a word processor to add the stuff. The only reason I could see using it would be for large scale conversion of text files that need a lot of formatting. Most of the other stuff, like making gifs transparent & changing background & text colors can be done with free or shareware.
Basically what I do is find something I like, download the source, and copy & paste.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Susan Jurist mailto:sjurist@ucsd.edu Visual Arts Librarian phone: 619.534.7193 University of California, San Diego fax: 619.534.0189 9500 Gilman 0175F, La Jolla CA 92093-0175
X-Sender: mailto:sarah@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 13:53:34 +1000 To: mailto:j.brasher@ins.gu.edu.au From: TidBITS Editors <mailto:editors@tidbits.com> (by way of s.j.barry@its.gu.edu.au (Sarah J Barry)) (by way of mailto:s.j.barry@its.gu.edu.au (Sarah J Barry)) Subject: TidBITS#305/27-Nov-95 - PageMill
PageMill: Adventures in WYSIWYG Land ------------------------------------ by Tonya Engst <mailto:tonya@tidbits.com>
PageMill 1.0, Adobe's much-anticipated WYSIWYG Web page creation tool, shipped a few weeks ago, and I wasted little time in trying it out. PageMill runs under any version of System 7, and Adobe recommends using it on a 68040- or PowerPC-based Mac with 6 MB of free application RAM, although you can scrape by with a minimum of 3 MB of application RAM. PageMill requires at least a 4-bit (16- color) monitor, so it will not run on a monochrome display.
PageMill works like an early version of PageMaker without paragraph styles. It also offers modern drag & drop features, provides plenty of optional keyboard shortcuts, and enables you to rapidly assemble a page from pre-existing parts. PageMill works well as a prototyping tool or as a way to quickly set up the overall look and feel of a new Web page or site.
PageMill's interface is easy and elegant, with the exception of the toolbar, which should have bigger buttons with more blank space between them. The hardest thing to figure out from the interface is how to create links, but if you take the time to skim the short manual, you should easily master all that PageMill can do. The manual, though professional and understandable, is written somewhat breathlessly, as though the writer tried to explain everything in ten minutes or less.
PageMill supports HTML 2.0 (basic options for a Web page that will reliably work in all Web browsers), and a smattering of Netscape extensions and proposed HTML 3.0 tags. PageMill shows high-ASCII characters as characters rather than named entities, making it usable for creating a Web page in European languages.
PageMill does not support tables, and this has disappointed some people enormously, perhaps because tables are difficult and tedious to hand code. It supports colored and tiled backgrounds, and can create the onscreen front end to a form. It also has a Raw HTML style which you can use for unsupported tags; unfortunately it has no macro or glossary features to speed up entering unsupported tags.
PageMill can directly use GIF and JPEG images or it can convert PICTs to GIFs. It can change a GIF's background color to transparent or add interlacing. PageMill offers a nice set of tools for making image maps, and makes it easy to associate different areas in a graphic with different URLs.
**Still Raw in Places** -- PageMill 1.0 may have been pushed out too fast. For instance, its font for body text is too small. The font looks like Times 12-point, and there's no way to change it, making PageMill inexplicably difficult to write in (though you can paste or drop text in from another source). PageMill has no text editing tools, not even a Find/Replace feature or a spelling checker. I've also heard too many reports about problems with PageMill crashing, though these reports usually end with a comment to the nature of "but PageMill is still my favorite program ever." PageMill suffers from a number of technical problems that have disappointed many serious HTML coders, and I'll talk a little more about those problems in a bit.
Mac users are sophisticated in their expectations of word processing and text editing programs, and we often transfer those expectations to HTML tools. These expectations are much of what brought on programs like Word 6, so I'm not too upset at PageMill for its lack of text formatting and manipulation tools. I am disappointed at PageMill's inability to act as an FTP client. It's easy to download, set up, and use an FTP client, but PageMill should hold new users' hands through this often traumatic step. At the very least, PageMill could interact with Anarchie or Fetch to ease the process.
**First Date** -- To find out if I could integrate PageMill into my HTML authoring tool set (I use Nisus Writer 4.1, which ships with excellent HTML macros), I tried using PageMill to make minor changes to the TidBITS home page, called default.html. The TidBITS site lives on King, a Power Macintosh 6150. The URL, in case you were wondering, is:
Maddeningly, US West hasn't yet set up a direct Internet connection to TidBITS's new location (in fact, after eight weeks they haven't even hooked up a second phone line), so I work remotely and use Anarchie to upload completed Web pages to King. I have a complete copy of the TidBITS Web site on my hard disk, so when I change a file on the site, I first change it locally and then upload it to King. The TidBITS Web site currently has 100 or so files, perhaps 15 on the main level, with the rest nested more deeply.
I worked on a copy of default.html, and I was glad I did because I set my PageMill Local Root Folder preference after opening default.html, and PageMill incorrectly changed all the relative link paths in the document. Apparently, I should have set that preference before opening default.html. After solving that problem, I revelled in what PageMill does well by quickly making a few wording changes, adding an item to the bulleted list, and adding a few links.
No matter what the benefits of coding in HTML may be, HTML is an uptight, rigid system where every typo matters. PageMill is HTML in a t-shirt with her hair down. PageMill enables you quickly and visually play with ideas, and it helps you answer questions like: "what part of this paragraph should be emphasized?" and "should I stick a horizontal rule here?"
I experienced one oddity where linking information disappeared after a save, but I put the link back, saved again, and the link stuck around.
**The Importance of MacWeb** -- I checked my PageMill page in MacWeb, and found two instances of a space missing between two words. PageMill showed spaces (as did Netscape), so I hadn't noticed the problem. One missing space came directly after a <STRONG> tag; the other before an Anchor tag. I used Nisus Writer to look directly at the HTML, and - sure enough - the spaces were missing. It's _always_ good to check Web pages in the less-error- tolerant MacWeb - you never know who might read your pages, or what browser they might use.
**The Double-<BR> Problem** -- Using PageMill was faster and more _fun_ than using any HTML authoring system I have tried - and I've tried a great number of them. Before merrily posting my revised page to King, I took a close look at the HTML created by PageMill. This seemed prudent, because the PageMill-Talk list has had a flurry of complaints about PageMill altering existing HTML code without asking.
As I expected from paying attention to PageMill-Talk, PageMill removed all my <P> tags (tags for a new paragraph) and replaced each one with two <BR> tags (tags that start a new line). Apparently, the reasoning for this underhanded removal is that Netscape displays additional blank lines for each contiguous <BR> tag, but ignores extra contiguous <P> tags.
I can't say for sure about the wide world of Web browsers at large, but MacWeb and NCSA Mosaic both _ignore_ extra contiguous <BR> tags. Besides the technical problems with PageMill's decision to replace <P> tags with <BR> tags, inexperienced Web authors my run afoul of this "feature" by unrealistically expecting that what they see in PageMill (white space created by pressing Return) will appear the same way in lots of different Web browsers.
**Tag Confusion** -- This leads to a problem that appears with increasing regularity on HTML-centric mailing lists. In their rush to learn HTML, many HTML authors haven't learned what tags go with HTML 2.0, and - as a result - have a murky understanding of how to make their pages look good everywhere. PageMill won't help Web authors sort out these issues; if anything, it makes them worse because knowing that a certain tag is a Netscape extension doesn't help you figure out how to implement (or avoid implementing) that tag in PageMill.
**Can HTML be WYSIWYG?** Although some people still prefer tags, the word processing industry made a fairly smooth transition to WYSIWYG word processors. PageMill, an early WYSIWYG HTML editor, makes an important step toward WYSIWYG, but HTML and the Web pose more complexities than the word processing transition to WYSIWYG did.
By and large, if you create a layout onscreen in a word processor, your printout will match that layout. If a word processor doesn't have a format (like columns), there's little or nothing you can do about it, no matter what printer you use. An experienced word processor user knows all the formats the program offers; an experienced (or even capable) user of a WYSIWYG Web authoring tool must know how the formats offered by the program interact with the larger feature set made available by various flavors of HTML.
This new wrinkle makes creating a useful and usable WYSIWYG Web authoring tool rather difficult. Some have suggested that PageMill's catering to Netscape users in its use of <BR> tags and certain supported extensions is fine, because Netscape is the most popular browser. I find this a tired argument, perhaps as tired as the argument that catering to Netscape users is a short-term effort to gain market share.
Without several layers of additional sophistication, a WYSIWYG authoring tool cannot keep up with all the available HTML browsers and tags, nor can it make everyone happy. For example, by implementing the <BR> tags as it does, PageMill helps naive Web authors create white space. Of course, PageMill's big, still- untapped, market _is_ naive Web authors who have neither time nor interest in using anything but Netscape.
In the long-term, it's possible that every double-<BR> put out by PageMill will have to be fixed (most likely with starting and ending <P> tags that surround each paragraph). Perhaps PageMill's designers figure they'll either ship PageMill 3.0 with an automatic converter or that future browsers will work okay when they encounter the incorrect but functional double-<BR> coding technique.
**Will I Use It?** I will use PageMill to prototype new pages and to experiment with design changes before implementing the HTML in Nisus Writer. Until PageMill leaves my <P> tags alone and give me more control over the underlying HTML, I cannot use it for final Web pages. What worries me is that SiteMill (due out soon), is based on PageMill but lets you manage the links and placement of files in a site. SiteMill's planned features sound wonderful, but if it forces me to put all my HTML documents into PageMill format, I won't use it. I don't want double-<BR> tags, and (based on comments written to PageMill-Talk) I'm concerned that PageMill will make other unwanted changes.
Professional typesetters were driven up the wall by people who used early versions of MacWrite to print newsletters to PostScript printers using Geneva for body text and New York for headlines, without anything resembling ligatures or kerning; experienced HTML authors may now be driven equally crazy by enthusiastic PageMill users. PageMill's energy and simplicity stand to make it enormously popular and influential.
**PageMill-Talk** -- In case you were wondering, you can chat about PageMill on the PageMill-Talk mailing list, and you can search back postings to the list.
http://www.blueworld.com/lists/pagemill-talk/ http://www.blueworld.com/lists.pagemill-talk.search.fcgi
You can also read about PageMill or order PageMill on Adobe's Web site:
http://www.adobe.com/Apps/PageMill/ http://www.adobe.com/Apps/PageMill/orderform.html
Adobe -- 800/411-8657 -- 206/628-2749
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 13:14:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Joanne Olson-DMA <mailto:dma@metronet.com> Subject: Re: Web Page Software To: Jennifer Brasher <mailto:J.Brasher@INS.GU.EDU.AU> Cc: Multiple recipients of list VRA-L <mailto:VRA-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0
Jennifer,
There is a demo version (save disabled) at Adobe's site.
http://www.adobe.com/Apps/PageMill/
There are a few things that PageMill doesn't have. You can not edit the HTML code on text format within PageMill. There are no Netscape extensions included.
I saw a demonstation of the software yesterday, as well as SiteMill. It is very quick, seemed easy to use. The terminology is HTML so it would help to know that already. But everything is organized with pull down menus, drag and drop. These were all very easy to create: Imagemaps Forms Background transparency GIF files Background color, tiling Font colors (text and links)
I'm hoping to get SiteMill.
Good luck, Joanne Olson ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ Collections Information Center | email: mailto:dma@metronet.com Dallas Museum of Art | http://www.unt.edu/dfw/dma/www/dma.htm 1717 North Harwood | voice: 214-922-1314 Dallas, TX 75201 | fax: 214-954-0174 ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ-ÿ Subject: Pagemill From: Bryan Stewart <mailto:bstewart@archone.tamu.edu> To: mailto:J.Brasher@ins.gu.edu.au Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 08:52:06 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0
Jennifer, I have Pagemill version 1 here and I have found it extremely easy to use. I had been using a shareware program called WEbWeaver, but Pagemill is much simpler. You can use drag and drop editing, images, etc., and you never have to see the html code at all (you can make it visible, but I haven't done it). I wouldn't want to use anything else at this point. Well, that's my 2 cents worth.
Bryan Stewart
______________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________________ Bryan Stewart | Technical Reference Center | College of Architecture | A library is not a luxury Texas A&M University | but one of the necessities College Station, Texas 77843-3137 | of life. (409) 845-6579 | -Henry Ward Beecher (409) 845-4491 [fax] | mailto:bstewart@archone.tamu.edu | ______________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________________
****************************************************************************** Jennifer Brasher EMAIL: mailto:J.Brasher@ins.gu.edu.au Art Librarian VOICE: +61 (07) 3875 3132 FAX: +61 (07) 3875 3133 SNAIL MAIL Queensland College of Art Library Griffith University Clearview Terrace Morningside Campus PO Box 84 Morningside Brisbane Queensland 4170 Australia ******************************************************************************
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
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